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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2010 Design Review Subcommitee (17) Minutes Review Design g e iew Subcommittee of the Elgin Heritage Commission December 14, 2010 The meeting of the Design Review Subcommittee was called to order at 6:02 p.m. in the City Council Chambers(Located on the 2nd floor of City Hall) by Chairman Stroud. MEMBERS PRESENT: Betsy Couture, Paul Durrenberger, Pat Miller, Dennis Roxworthy, Steve Stroud and John Wiedmeyer MEMBERS ABSENT: Bill Briska CITY STAFF PRESENT: Jennifer Fritz-Williams, Historic Preservation Planner and Sandra Kolba (substituting for Cindy Walden, DRS Secretary, during her absence). PROPERTIES ON AGENDA FOR DISCUSSION: C SSION. Old Business None New Business 1. 315 Bent Street—Replace all windows and front door 2. 375 Prairie Street— Replace all siding, remove rear addition and door, replace second floor door with window 3. 537 Arlington Ave—Build a garage 4. 411 Wellington —Install a vinyl shed 5. 110 S Channing Street— Restore porches 6. 305 E Chicago Street—Apply muntins to windows 7. 463 E Chicago Street—Widen new window at rear of property OTHERS PRESENT: None APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Although the approval of minutes of the meetings of July 27, September 28, October 12, October 26 and November 23, 2010 were listed on the agenda,the only minutes presented were from the November 23, 2010 meeting. Steve Stroud asked if there were any corrections or additions which needed to be made to these minutes. Dennis Roxworthy made a motion to approve the minutes of November 9, Design Review Subcommittee Minutes — December 14, 2010 Page 2 of 26 2010,John Wiedmeyer seconded the motion, a vote was taken and the minutes were unanimously approved. ITEMS TABLED: 1. 703 Raymond Street— Restore porches (10.13.09) 2. 320 N Spring Street— Handrail for side porch (6.22.10) OLD BUSINESS: None NEW BUSINESS: 315 Bent Street— Replace all windows and front door The contractor has submitted an application for a Certificate of Appropriateness to replace the front door, all the windows, and the front porch, including the structure, columns, handrails, and porch floor. The front door (on the west side) was damaged during the fire and is not original to the property. The contractor has proposed a simple design, one lite over two recessed panels. The door will be smooth fiberglass and match the existing opening. The property owners wish to replace all the windows. During the fire, only two windows on the west side of the house were damaged beyond repair (boarded up). At least nine windows are original and approximately 3 windows were replaced with shorter ones in the first half of the century. All these windows are repairable. The front porch sustained significant damage during the fire. In order to meet current code requirements,the entire structure of the porch needed to be rebuilt. The porch will be rebuilt to match the existing with round columns, 1x4 tongue n groove flooring, Elgin Design Guideline Manual Specifications: Doors and Door Features A. should be replaced with new doors appropriate for the style and period of the dwelling. Replacement doors should be similar in design to the original in style, glazing (type of glass and area) and lights (pane configuration). Wood or solid core fiberglass is acceptable materials for use in replacement doors. B. should be constructed of solid wood panels, such as the four-panel Homestead or Italianate design may be used on the front if appropriate to the style of the house. C. should involve glazing in clear etched or beveled glass as appropriate to the style of the house, if applicable. D. should not be removed or altered. The original size of the door opening should 4111) Design Review Subcommittee Minutes— December 14, 2010 Page 3 of 26 not be enlarged, reduced, or shortened in height. Windows A. which are original should be preserved in their original location, size, and design and with their original materials and numbers of panes (glass lights). B. should be repaired rather than replaced, but if replacement is necessary, the recommended replacement should be in-kind to match the originals in material and design. Windows clad in aluminum or baked-on aluminum are acceptable as replacement windows for use throughout the structure. Factors to be considered in determining whether the severity of deterioration of windows requires replacement shall include but not be limited to the following factors: damage, excessive weathering, loss of soundness or integrity of the wood, deterioration due to rot or insect attack, and cost to repair. As to the factor of the cost to repair windows, a particular window may be permitted to be replaced rather than repaired if the estimated cost to repair the windows is more than the estimated cost of the purchase and installation of appropriate replacement windows. C. Vinyl extruded windows are not permitted for use in historic districts. D. that are approved for replacement may be fitted with new double-paned Low-E glass that will improve the energy conservation on the interior. Only low-e glass that does not contain a tint should be used. r Porches A. should be maintained in their original design with original materials and detailing. B. should be repaired or replaced to match the original in design, materials, scale, and placement. C. should have steps of the same material as the porch floor (e.g. porches with wood floors should also have steps made of wood, not concrete or brick). D. should have wood tongue and groove flooring running perpendicular to the facade, if the porch floor is made of wood. E. should be filled in as traditional for the type and style of the house, or with decorative wood framed skirting, vertical slats, or lattice panels, if open areas in the foundation exist. Porch Columns and Railing A. should be preserved and maintained. Where repair is required, use materials to match the original in dimensions and detailing. B. should be rebuilt in historic designs if the original columns and railings have been removed or replaced. C. should have new balusters for the railing, if required. Porch balusters (also called spindles) should be appropriate for the building's style and period. The height of the railing should be in line with the window sill level, if present, and no greater than 30 inches in height. Porch Staircases and Steps A. should be retained in their original location and configuration, if original to the property. Wood and concrete steps should be repaired with materials to match the original. Design Review Subcommittee Minutes — December 14, 2010 Page 4 of 26 B. should be replaced with wood rather than brick or concrete, if the porch floor is made of wood. C. should have their tread constructed in either 5/4x12 or 2x12 lumber. The ends of the treads should be bull-nosed and overhang the riser by no less than 1 inch. D. should have newel posts and balusters, treads and risers, to match original porch construction. Staff Recommendation: Staff recommends approval of the Certificate of Appropriateness with the following conditions: 1. Only two windows are replaced with one over one aluminum-clad wood replacement sash kits to match the existing openings. 2. All porch details comply with the Eglin Design Guideline Manual. 3. All structural wood members are pressure-treated, while finish wood is clear cedar, primed and painted. Stroud: Any Discussion? Miller: Which door? We will discuss these items separately? Door and windows? Stroud: We will do windows based on staff recommendation and the door basically the same. The porch will probably take some additional work. Anything on the door to be discussed? Wiedmeyer: I would like to make sure that the trim around the door is back to the original. Roxworthy: Cap too? Owner: Yes, the one shown is just temporary. That is a temporary door. "" Fritz-Williams: The door was damaged by the fire and had to be removed. Stroud: The house probably dates to circa 1910-15. The windows with leading and the diamond pattern is 1915 era. We need to have a door that is close to that era. Miller: So you disagree with the survey, around 1880? Stroud: There may have been a good deal of remodeling. I don't see that it is that old. Fritz-Williams: Style 132 is suggested. Stroud: Yes,that would be appropriate for almost anything before 1920. Are we going with the staff recommendation on the door and only the two windows be replaced and the others repaired? Any further discussion along those lines? We can have a vote on windows and doors alone. I entertain a motion to approve the staff recommendations. Wiedmeyer: With an amendment for trim to match Roxworthy: Wasn't the two windows to be original size? Fritz-Williams: Yes, the two windows are the original size. Owner: Why can't we replace the other window? Stroud: Generally, if they are original to the building and not seriously damaged, we recommended that they be maintained and repaired as necessary. Roxworthy: There is a 50% rule that you go by. Fritz-Williams: Also, the cost to repair must exceed the cost to replace. And replacement would need to be aluminum clad. Stroud: If you would like to have us reconsider that portion, I would suggest that you go along with this and then you apply for those windows in a separate COA. Design Review Subcommittee Minutes — December 14, 2010 Page 5 of 26 Fritz-Williams: And you would to provide the estimates to repair the windows and an estimate to replace the windows. Motion made by Commissioner Wiedmeyer to approve staff recommendations on the door and windows, with the trim to match. The motion was seconded by Commissioner Roxworthy. The motion passed unanimously. Stroud: Okay, now we have to deal with the porch. Basically you are repairing rather than replacing? Fritz-Williams: If you look at the survey, this porch has been altered prior to 1913 and has a more colonial style. Miller: Are you saying that the entire structure is unsafe, including the roof? Fritz-Williams: Not the roof; the framing in the roof is going to be (?) to strengthen it and the b-boards will be put back over it. There were structures below that were literally rotted to the ground. Work has already started on the foundation because they wanted to get the piers done before the cold weather. They are in the exact same location. Stroud: Further discussion: Miller: The round columns are incorrect as well as the straight balusters. If replacing, they should be made correct for the period and style. The survey comes into play. Wraparound porch should have round columns or turned posts. Fritz-Williams: This is not the original porch. I do believe that the round columns have always been with the wraparound porch. And, if they are going to be keeping that same layout, other types of columns will be a mismatch. And we have to allow for porches that were put on in the first two decades of this century to maintain the historical home. Miller: So you are saying the footprint is not correct? You have no earlier map? Fritz-Williams: Correct. Miller: Certainly there are wrap around porches with turned posts that still exist. Wiedmeyer: I didn't see any indication of any gingerbread or anything else around, if it had been turned post it would probably have brackets and possibly corbels. I didn't see any indication of that type of ornamentation. I don't know if that helps to have columns over posts. Miller: On the beams? Wiedmeyer: Yes. The caps are still on the beam and next to them I didn't notice anything with paint outlines or holes from spindles. Stroud: I am not convinced that this is a 1880 house. If you look at the picture with the piano window, that is very typical of the mid-teens, with the pattern of the leaded glass. Miller: Early 20th Century. Fritz-Williams: It is also on the rear of the property. Stroud: I am just using that as a resource to figure the date. The same pattern is over the picture window in the front. If it is early 20th Century,then the round columns would fit. It may not be on any maps because it may not have been built yet. Generally those maps did cover a lot of territory that was populated. If it wasn't a populated area, they didn't cover them. Those were for insurance purposes. I would say that the round columns would be appropriate. Design Review Subcommittee Minutes— December 14, 2010 Page 6 of 26 Wiedmeyer: I had a couple questions for either the homeowner or the contractor. The stairs that are built there, are those the stairs that are going to be the porch there? Are there going to be any changes? Owner: Yes. Wiedmeyer: I have a problem with those because, right now, you have them where the top tread is even with the flooring. Owner: It was always like that. Wiedmeyer: It was always like that? Normally it would be a step off the porch and down. It may have been changed at one point where the stairs fell off and these stairs were put on and that is how they put them on. Owner: I wanted to do it with a step but decided to go the same as it was. Miller: Matching something old is one think but when it is a mistake. Wiedmeyer: It may have been done 20 years ago and whoever put the stairs on built them wrong. Miller: What is in the driveway? Steps? Fritz-Williams: Those are the old steps. Wiedmeyer: The second question I have is what is your plan for finishing around the outside of the porch? Specifically underneath the flooring,the flooring will fit on top of the joist. Not the floor but covering up the rim joist? Owner: The same. Wiedmeyer: It looks like your framing is bigger than what was there before. The problem is that now you have to cover up that board with a lx and it will throw the proportions of the 411) skirting off where now you need a bigger board at the bottom and there isn't much room for that. By the photos, it looks like there is 2x8 framing which would have been typical of a porch this size and... Owner: We talked to Steve and we wanted to put in 2x10 but he said 2x12. Wiedmeyer: You could have doubled up two 2x8s and it would have been stronger than one 2x12. The problem is that, aesthetically, now you have this large mass under the floor and shorter skirting and it throws off the proporations. Owner: Steve denied the double 2x10 and said we had to use 2x12. Stroud: Who is Steve? Fritz-Williams: That would be Steve Bone, planner, the person who reviewed the plans. Wiedmeyer: It would be nice to see if somehow you could camouflage so that you are not having to put a 1x12 to cover that up as a finish board. You can paint it black, put your skirting over it, and then a 1x8 or 1x10, something narrower, to give it less mass right under the stairs. Miller: It sounds like you want to replicate the porch that is there. My question in my mind is you don't replicate something that is incorrect. Do we know what was under the stairs. It needs to be corrected. The stringers show with a triangular panel. Fritz-Williams: All the details must need to match the design guidelines. All the details have to be followed. Durrenberger: I would like to see this on paper exactly what will be constructed. It is too general. There is a gap in what we are discussing and what work has to be done. Is somebody 411)going to be there every day? Design Review Subcommittee Minutes — December 14, 2010 Page 7 of 26 Fritz-Williams: We have all seen the standard drawing. It is going to be the same. I have two, one with square baluster and one with the round baluster. Wiedmeyer: Have they seen it yet? Fritz-Williams: No. Durrenberger: Is there going to be something similar for the skirt? Fritz-Williams: Yes,the skirt is on that drawing. Stroud: Paul, is that satisfactory? Durrenberger: Well, no. Wiedmeyer: If they were to see the drawing and then either modify the drawing to fit what they are building...because right now you are going off of this has to be built like what was there and there seems to be a gap between what they think is there and what should be there and what we want there. Fritz-Williams: They would need to follow the permit and COA . They did not have a permit to put in the stairs. Couture: You are saying that those stairs will be corrected? Fritz-Williams: Yes. Roxworthy: That is the question I asked earlier. I wanted to see the stairs corrected. Miller: I can't tell on the survey whether those are columns or is there a little short post? There is a shrub in the way. Fritz-Williams: Four full height columns and one half post at the top and then two half posts at the bottom. Miller: Left or right rail? Which one needs the half post? Fritz-Williams: (pointed to location on picture). Miller: Stair rail will come up and meet corner? Durrenberger: Kind of unconventional, isn't it? I don't think I have ever seen one go right into the corner. Have you ever seen it? Stroud/Roxworthy: Yes Miller: A little thing like that is not clearly defined. That is one of my pet peeves—the apron, each column has a wood member that corresponds with a column. Stroud: Is everyone in agreement? I entertain a motion to approve staff recommendations with amendments. Motion made by Commissioner Roxworthy to approve staff recommendations with amendments on the porch. The motion was seconded by Commissioner Wiedmeyer. The motion passed unanimously. Fritz-Williams: The final approval and drawing and COA will be available for pickup on Friday. 375 Prairie Street—Replace all siding, remove rear addition and door, replace second floor door with window The owner has submitted an application for a Certificate of Appropriateness to restore the front porch, replace all the siding, remove rear addition, and replace a second floor door with a Design Review Subcommittee Minutes — December 14, 2010 Page 8 of 26 window. This work is being done as part of the Historic Architectural Rehabilitation Grant as well as the Residential Rehabilitation Grant. The front porch appears to be mostly original. The front stairs and possibly the skirting have been replaced. However, skirting may have been replaced to match the original. The owner wishes to replace all missing/rotten wood to match. Although originally there would not have been handrails and newel posts on the stairs, code now requires them. The owner wishes to install half columns with ball caps and handrails to match the porch. The owner wishes to replace all the siding. He believes the siding is damaged beyond repair. Staff has investigated the property thoroughly and estimates less than 50%of the siding is missing or damaged. Most of the missing siding is at the corners of the building or recently removed to install roofing. The damaged siding has been caused by inappropriate nails and lack of paint. The wood is sound on a majority of the house. Please note the owner has given the subcommittee members permission to inspect the siding for themselves. The owner wishes to remove a small enclosed room on the rear of the house. From the Sanborn maps it appears this room was always there or added shortly after construction of the house. The owner wishes to remove a second floor door and replace it with a window. This property was previously a two-unit building. This door was an entrance to the second floor unit. The owner has not provided an example of the window but stated he would like to match a fixed window on the back of the house (located right below it next to the functioning rear door). Elgin Design Guideline Manual Specifications: Porches A. should be maintained in their original design with original materials and detailing. B. should be repaired or replaced to match the original in design, materials, scale, and placement. C. should have steps of the same material as the porch floor (e.g. porches with wood floors should also have steps made of wood, not concrete or brick). D. should have wood tongue and groove flooring running perpendicular to the facade, if the porch floor is made of wood. E. should be filled in as traditional for the type and style of the house, or with decorative wood framed skirting, vertical slats, or lattice panels, if open areas in the foundation exist. Porch Columns and Railing A. should be preserved and maintained. Where repair is required, use materials to match the original in dimensions and detailing. B. should be rebuilt in historic designs if the original columns and railings have been removed or replaced. C. should have new balusters for the railing, if required. Porch balusters (also called spindles) should be appropriate for the building's style and period. The height of the railing should be in line with the window sill level, if present, and no greater than 30 inches in height. Porch Staircases and Steps A. should be retained in their original location and configuration, if original to the property. Wood and concrete steps should be repaired with materials to match the original. B. should be replaced with wood rather than brick or concrete, if the porch floor is made of 4111) wood. Design Review Subcommittee Minutes — December 14, 2010 Page 9 of 26 C. should have their tread constructed in either 5/4x12 or 2x12 lumber. The ends of the treads should be bull-nosed and overhang the riser by no less than 1 inch. D. should have newel posts and balusters,treads and risers, to match original porch construction. Wood Siding A. should be repaired rather than replaced, if original. If replacement is necessary, wood siding and shingles should be replaced with new cement board or shingles to match the original in size, placement, and design. Wood that has been concealed beneath synthetic sidings such as aluminum, asbestos, or vinyl should be repaired and the synthetic sidings removed. Following the removal of synthetic sidings the original siding should be repaired to match the original, caulked and painted. if the "ghosts" or outlines of decorative missing features are revealed, these should generally be replicated and reinstalled. If these features are not replaced they should be recorded through photographs or drawings for future replication. B. should not be concealed beneath synthetic materials such as vinyl, masonite, or aluminum, if original. Original siding should also not be concealed beneath wood based materials such as article board, gyp board, or press board. These materials generally do not possess textures or designs which closely match original wood siding. However, if more than 50% of the original siding material is damaged beyond repair, or missing, substitute materials may be applied if the following conditions are met: o the existing damaged siding materials are removed prior to the installation of substitute materials; o Vinyl material is not permissible. Rather, cement board is and should be smooth without knots and be accented with trim o Finger jointed board stock is acceptable, however, natural continuous board stock is preferable for use as siding. o The application of these materials must not result in the concealment of or removal of original decorative detailing or trim including window and door surrounds. However, if no trim or surrounds exist then new wood trim in the form of fascia, corner boards, base boards, molding and windows should be installed; o Substitute materials should match the dimensions of the original wood siding as closely as possible. The cement board should abut the wood trim and be caulked to prevent moisture damage. Demolition A. should be avoided of any original feature or part of a pre-1945 building. B. should not occur, unless: 1. An emergency condition exists and the public safety and welfare requires the removal of the building or structure; 2. A building does not contribute to the historical or architectural characterof the districts and its removal will improve the appearance of the districts; or 3. The denial of the demolition will result in an Economic Hardship on the applicant as determined by Chapter 20.10 of Title 20 of the Elgin Municipal Code—"Elgin Historic Preservation Ordinance." Design Review Subcommittee Minutes— December 14, 2010 Page 10 of 26 4. The denial of the demolition will impede rehabilitation, or redevelopment of the site, and/or `. e adjacent properties from substantially improving the aesthetic, architectural or economic value of the affected properties and surrounding area. Staff Recommendation: Staff recommends approval of the Certificate of Appropriateness with the following conditions: 1. Porch details are replaced only if beyond repair. 2. Newel posts are 6" round. 3. All porch details comply with the Elgin Design Guideline Manual. 4. Any structural wood members are pressure-treated, while finish wood is clear cedar, primed and painted, excluding porch floor and columns. 5. Wood siding is not replaced but repaired as needed. 6. Any missing siding is replaced with staggered joints. 7. The new rear window shall match the existing one is size, design and style. Staff does not recommend approval of the Certificate of Appropriateness to demolition the small room at the rear of the property as it appears to be original. Rather, stairs should be built to the existing rear door. Stroud: I have a comment,this house is almost identical to another that Henry Jensen built. It is difficult to tell the difference between the two. You should go to the museum to look at comparable house and it may give you some ideas. It shows the interior floor plan. There were no railings on the stairs, in those days... Owner: Actually on the posts,there was something there. There was some type of handrail. Those stairs are definitely not original. They are not the same size so there is definitely something missing. Stroud: Come to Old Main, the museum on Park Street. We have the Jensen bid books for around 1900 to 1912-15. There is a house that is very, very similar to this. Jensen may have been the builder of this house, I don't know. As far as the rear porch, it may have been original or shortly after the original. It doesn't show that it has the features that are natural to a part of the building, it doesn't have a foundation, it is basically like a porch. Owner: Like an entrance into a mudroom. My thinking was it would be cheaper to just remove it and side it then it would be actually to restore it. Stroud: My feelings are that something that could be removed. Again, if the house is similar enough to the ones that Jensen built, it will show if there is anything of that sort in the back. Owner: We also thought about, in the future,three or four years down the road, putting an addition on the back of the house to extend the kitchen. It would look exactly the same,just three or four feet wider. Stroud: That is something in the future. We have to deal with what is now. Owner: That is what is on our minds for a few years down the road. Roxworthy: They used rooms like that for the ice box. There was a hole in the floor. Very common. Miller: Wouldn't there be a structural problem with that? If kept, would you put in new piers? Owner: Probably, yes they are getting to the point that we would have to shore it up. Design Review Subcommittee Minutes — December 14, 2010 Page 11 of 26 Wiedmeyer: What are the interior of the walls like in there? What does it have? Owner: There is a door into the kitchen that goes from that mud room. There was some stairs. Wiedmeyer: The wall that it shares with the exterior wall, is that sided or is that b-board. What's the interior finish? Owner: It's been six years since we have looked in there so we don't know. Wiedmeyer: The reason I ask is that underneath it is tongue and groove flooring so it could have been a porch at one time. Stroud: It could have been and it was immediately closed it. It looks like it was an afterthought. Owner: We downloaded the Sanborn map and could see a tiny thing on the back. Stroud: If it started out as a porch,just a little stoop, that would be quite possible and then closed in almost immediately. Miller: What year Sanborn map? Fritz-Williams: 1913, not 1903. It doesn't have a full foundation. It was not meant to be an enclosed space. They probably closed off the porch. Stroud: We are dealing with several different items here. Installation of the gutters, reconstruction of features on the front porch, something that will have to be determined after comparison to other structures of similar era. We also have restoration of the bay windows. Fritz-Williams: We also have all exterior details,trim, anything that is damaged. Stroud: Replace the door. Further discussion. Miller: What are they going to do about the skirting on the porch. Owner: Definitely not original. Miller: Is the current pattern a copy of the old pattern? Fritz-Williams: This kind of reminds me of a house in the 500 block of East Chicago Street. An original photo of the house that shows the same skirting as that. When you go up to it it looks like modern wood, not 1800's or early 1900's. Miller: It also has no framing. Do you have a plan in mind for the skirting? Owner: Not particularly. We know that this doesn't look nice, it doesn't look original so we wanted to find something that would be appropriate and match what was supposed to be there. We have gone around and looked at some of the other houses and took some pictures but, whatever the final design is, we will submit that and get the approval. What the point of contention is right now is the next stage of the project which is repairing the damaged siding which I don't think all of the siding on the house is damaged, but there is significant portion of that siding that is worn down to the point that it is gone or you can actually see through the siding, its rotted through and not repairable so getting the siding that is damaged repaired and then also the rest of the house, the paint is so badly damaged to be able to remove the paint, prime it and paint it with proper updated materials and that is what we are trying to get done right now. Get the siding fixed and the house stripped, primed and painted as the next stage of the process. Miller: What about the porch. Owner: When I wrote down the things that we wanted to do, I didn't know how much it was going to cost, so now we are going to get the estimates to get the painting removed because we were approved for a grant that requires us to use a lead abatement contractor. The lead Design Review Subcommittee Minutes— December 14, 2010 Page 12 of 26 abatement contractor, I haven't met one personally yet that has the carpentry skills to replace 411) the siding on the home. So, I don't know if I can find somebody that has the historical clapboard restoration experience, but I would like to use the lead abatement contractor to remove the paint and take the siding off the house that requires that type of contractor and then have a carpenter who is experienced in replacing clapboard of this kind do the carpentry work. The approved lead abatement contractors in the City of Elgin do not have the experience of the wood carpentry work that we need on this house. And I have gotten three or four different lead abatement contractors to come out to the house and that is where my biggest concern is. I want to be able to choose which contractor is going to do which piece of the puzzle. Does that make sense John? Wiedmeyer: Yeah, when I looked at, I don't think that all of the siding needs to be replaced. I do agree that with what you said that on certain areas it is beyond repair. The west side and the very back portion and the south portion of the house is the worst where the corners are totally gone. Owner: Yeah, the front and the one side of the house is pretty good, but the back and the other side of the house is completely trashed. So it is like 50% is where we are at. We could strip the other two sides and repair the broken wood. Wiedmeyer: I would say that the south and back portion and the west side are in need of replacement but the other sides are repairable. NOTE: The tape ended here and this is strictly off my handwritten notes: Owner: So the question is are we allowed to use grant money to repair the siding which is not repairable? Fritz-Williams: The COAs require estimates and federal guidelines for rehab grants require lead abatement contractors. Owner: Can't we use the lead abatement contractor for the removal of the paint and siding but use a carpenter for the replacement and painting? Fritz-Williams: No, one contractor must do it all. There is a need to do lead abatement around the windows and it isn't always removal of lead, it is occasionally containment. Owner: If the house is not stripped down to the bare wood, it won't last. Roxworthy: Lead base paint was meant to clean itself. But once you put latex over lead base, the latex crawls and moves around. Owner: Can we replace half of the siding? Do we have to remove the paint to the bare wood? Fritz-Williams: It is not required but it is recommended. Stroud: Okay, so we have agreed to allow the mud room to be removed, agree? Can we entertain a motion to remove the mud room? Owner: We will remove the door, wall it in and side it. Motion made by Commissioner Roxworthy to remove mud room. The motion was seconded by Commissioner Wiedmeyer. The motion passed unanimously. This is continued off tape and strictly from handwritten notes: Design Review Subcommittee Minutes — December 14, 2010 Page 13 of 26 Stroud: Rear door. Match. Is it on landing? Often stained glass and smaller. Something to consider. Landing to second floor. Fritz-Williams: Rear servant stairs. Owner: Small window in staircase. Too dark. Add a small window in center. Couture: Where at? Owner: (relied on tape and there was no tape) Wiedmeyer: Above banding? Owner: Yes, all sides. Wiedmeyer: Directly in line with other windows if the same size. Directly above. Stroud: Would maintain symmetry. Wiedmeyer: Outside in or inside out. Stroud: If find other houses with same design, we would get a better idea. Owner: The door is centered in staircase; no problem. Stroud: Can we entertain a motion on replacing the door with a window? Motion made by Commissioner Wiedmeyer to replace door with a window. The motion was seconded by Commissioner Roxworthy. The motion passed unanimously. Stroud: Third —siding west and part of south wall. Discussion: Miller: 100%? Wiedmeyer: Cut back from corner, weave it (relied on tape and there was no tape). Owner: If you look up, you will see it is so bad —rattling, nails loose, brittle. Miller: All the way up to the soffit and facia? Owner: The three feet from the eave is okay and strippable. Durrenberger: 75-80% bad on that wall and side and back. The back is a little worse. Owner: Old growth better. Will salvage whatever can. Roxworthy: On a garage on Cedar Avenue, I put 1/2x4 and it matches beautifully and the new cedar is nice stuff. Owner: No peeling? Roxworthy: It was great and because it is brand new, it will last a long time. Owner: Only what needs to be replaced; cheaper to replace or strip? Wiedmeyer: Any old is better than new. Keep as much of the old as possible. It is 75-80% bad on two sides but the other two sides are 20% bad. Does not need to remove all of the siding. Most is in good shape on the east side. Piece in bad pieces. Put in new and replace old. Stroud: Repair what can be repaired and replace what can't be. Will someone entertain a motion to repair and replace siding as discussed? Motion made by Commissioner Roxworthy to replace door with a window. The motion was seconded by Commissioner Couture. The motion passed unanimously. Stroud: Now the porch. Discussion? Design Review Subcommittee Minutes — December 14, 2010 Page 14 of 26 Miller: You want to replicate the existing features of the porch? 41) Owner: Are the spindles original? What would apply? Round? Square? The skirt is not original. The railing appears to be original. The flooring is in bad shape but salvageable. The spindles, skirt, rails and newel posts need to be remade and created to be original. Miller: What spindles and railing are you asking for? Owner: We may not be able to afford to repair the porch this year. We figure we would start that next year since the cost is approximately$50,000. Fritz-Williams: Unfortunately, the porch is a code issue and needs to be addressed. Miller: What about the porch arch? Durrenberger: It's typical. Stroud: It is typical of a Jensen home with gooseneck railing with spindles. This could be original with the typical material with sharp corners. Miller: I pulled out gooseneck and there were no nail holes. Stroud: It almost looks too modern but the skirting needs to be simple. This was an era where it went from Victorian to Prairie, more simple designs. For example, the ballisters and skirting. After the Columbian Exhibition, everything went white. Skirting should be simple, but not this pattern. There are a lot of choices. You need to look at other houses from the building boom of 1900 to 1915 after World War I. Fritz-Williams: It should be left up to staff to approve. Stroud: Yes, approve for items to be changed and/or fixed. Roxworthy: Leave railing but need new skirting. Miller: Is the rise okay? Owner: No, but will correct. Stroud: Put that information in a COA. Can we entertain a motion on the porch. Motion made by Commissioner Roxworthy to approve staff recommendations on the porch. The motion was seconded by Commissioner Wiedmeyer. The motion passed unanimously. Fritz-Williams: Preliminary drawing will be ready for Steve for approval on Friday. 537 Arlington Ave— Build a garage The owner has submitted an application for a Certificate of Appropriateness to extend the driveway and build a garage. There is currently no garage at this property. The new garage will have a 16' garage door, one window and one service door. The specifications are all described in Exhibit F. Elgin Design Guideline Manual Specifications: New Residential Construction, Secondary Buildings A. should be smaller in scale than the dwelling; clearly secondary in nature. B. should be simple in design but reflecting the general character of the associated dwelling. For example, use gable roof forms if the dwelling has a gable roof, hipped roof forms if the dwelling has a hipped roof etc. Design Review Subcommittee Minutes — December 14, 2010 Page 15 of 26 C. should be built at traditional locations for outbuildings in the locally designated districts. These include at rear lot lines, adjacent to alleys, and at the back side of a dwelling; D. should be compatible in design, shape, materials, and roof shape to the associated dwelling; E. should be of an exterior material to match the associated dwelling such as clapboard, stucco, or brick. However, if not readily visible from the street, secondary buildings may have exterior substitute siding materials such as cement fiber board with appropriate trim and exposure and cementitious materials. F. should be of traditional materials if readily visible. For garages, wood paneled doors are more appropriate than paneled doors of vinyl, aluminum, or steel. Wood paneled overhead roll-up doors are widely available and are appropriate for new garages. For two car garages the use of two single doors instead of one larger double door is more appropriate for use in a historic district. However, one double is unacceptable for garages of less than twenty-two feet. G. should have windows in the garage doors are recommended, but windows may not be appropriate in every case for garage doors. H. should have raised panel steel doors are acceptable and should be painted to match the house and set off the relief of the panels. I. should be in designs that are more appropriate for use with traditionally designed structures, if prefabricated sheds are proposed to be used. J. should not be constructed of rough sawn cedar with knots. Staff Recommendation: Staff recommends approval of the Certificate of Appropriateness with the following conditions: 1. The garage size is reduced to be smaller in scale than the house. 2. The overhead door has recessed panels. 3. The soffits are open to match the house. 4. The siding shall be T-111 or similar exterior grade product, no "Smart-side" products. This is continued off tape and strictly from handwritten notes: Stroud: Discussion: Roxworthy: I owned a two-flat at 541 Arlington Avenue. I sold this property a guy to build on and this ended up being one of the biggest mistakes in my life. I am not happy with what they did. Miller: That was done before the area was designated as an historic district? Roxworthy: Yes. Fritz-Williams: Vertical siding was not usual to post World War II houses. Stroud: Would someone like to entertain a motion to approve staff recommendation? Motion made by Commissioner Durrenberger to approve staff recommendations on the porch. The motion was seconded by Commissioner Roxworthy. The motion passed unanimously. Owner: I have a few questions. Can the windows be the same as the house? Design Review Subcommittee Minutes — December 14, 2010 Page 16 of 26 Stroud: You cannot use vinyl windows, they need to be wood. There are no style 41115 requirements. Use one over one double hung, wood or aluminum clad. Fritz-Williams: Wood covered by aluminum, not plastic. Owner: What about the service door? Stroud: Same door as the house. Fritz-Williams: You should use a 6-panel door, solid is okay with no glass. Stroud: There is some freedom for you because the house is not historic but make it as similar to the house without sacrificing safety and security. Owner: What about the overhead door? Stroud: Jennifer will show you what is appropriate. Fritz-Williams: The COA will be ready by Friday. 411 Wellington— Install a vinyl shed The owner withdrew this COA since the posting of the meeting agenda. 110 S Channing Street— Restore porches The contractor has submitted an application for a Certificate of Appropriateness to restore the front porches. Demolition of the existing side porch and removal of the paint revealed evidence of the original porches. The front porch originally had a gable canopy. This feature will be replaced, keeping the existing brackets. The side porch will be a half octagon based on the original piers found during demolition. This also matches the outline shown on the 1897 Sanborn map. The contractor has added other period details including brackets, handrails, turned columns, and newel posts. Elgin Design Guideline Manual Specifications: Porches A. should be maintained in their original design with original materials and detailing. B. should be repaired or replaced to match the original in design, materials, scale, and placement. C. should have steps of the same material as the porch floor (e.g. porches with wood floors should also have steps made of wood, not concrete or brick). D. should have wood tongue and groove flooring running perpendicular to the facade, if the porch floor is made of wood. E. should be filled in as traditional for the type and style of the house, or with decorative wood framed skirting, vertical slats, or lattice panels, if open areas in the foundation exist. Porch Columns and Railing A. should be preserved and maintained. Where repair is required, use materials to match the original in dimensions and detailing. • Design Review Subcommittee Minutes — December 14, 2010 Page 17 of 26 B. should be rebuilt in historic designs if the original columns and railings have been removed or replaced. C. should have new balusters for the railing, if required. Porch balusters (also called spindles) should be appropriate for the building's style and period. The height of the railing should be in line with the window sill level, if present, and no greater than 30 inches in height. Porch Staircases and Steps A. should be retained in their original location and configuration, if original to the property. Wood and concrete steps should be repaired with materials to match the original. B. should be replaced with wood rather than brick or concrete, if the porch floor is made of wood. C. should have their tread constructed in either 5/4x12 or 2x12 lumber. The ends of the treads should be bull-nosed and overhang the riser by no less than 1 inch. D. should have newel posts and balusters, treads and risers,to match original porch construction. Staff Recommendation: Staff recommends approval of the Certificate of Appropriateness with the following conditions: 1. The side porch does not receive brackets, but a decorative frieze instead (similar to 467 Division). 2. Columns should have 48" of turned decoration, leaving 18" for frieze detail. 3. The newel posts are 6x6 with a ball cap. 4. The balusters should be 2x2 with a groove cut, possibly "stick" design. See Exhibit F3. 5. Details of the handrail and bottom rail are submitted for staff approval. 6. Porch skirting to have decorative cut-out determined by staff. 7. All porch details comply with the Eglin Design Guideline Manual. 8. All structural wood members are pressure-treated, while finish wood is clear cedar, primed and painted, excluding porch floor and columns. The tape was restored for this segment of the meeting: Stroud: This was pretty well covered. Miller: Let's discuss the front and side porches separately. On the drawing of the front, there is a square transom on the door with a hint of a semi-circular brick heading over the door. It looks curved. So, when you take the round portico off, the transom looks other than a rectangle. Owner: It is rectangular. We verified that from inside the house. Miller: What is the red brick. Owner: My guess is that, originally, red brick was tucked underneath the underside of the gable porch. Miller: You say it was covered over? Owner: No, there was just a little transition piece to fill the flat to the curve on top of the transom. The flashing was covering the arch and it became exposed in the paint and stripping Design Review Subcommittee Minutes— December 14, 2010 Page 18 of 26 process. So my guess is that we could show the dark red arch in the center of the proposed �. new gable just above the transom. Miller: Well actually, that is the minor part. It appears an open gable with only soffit coming down and then two brackets. The problem is that I can't find a single example of that. I looked through all of the books. All of the markers are of homes with gabled front porches, not a single one of them is open. The gable is closed in and that panel is placed for decorative work. I also find none with brackets. I have to say that my feeling is, if we are going to take off the round, it will be a different design here. Then we need to find an example to base the present design on. It seems like it is just made up since I am not finding an example of it anywhere. You are welcome to look through the books. They are also at the library. What I am saying is this is how many I found but I didn't find any that would support your design. Owner: So we should move in the direction of how the porch is supported. Miller: I think that you should find an example that you could back you design on for accuracy. Owner: Locally. Miller: Preferable local. As local as ever. Gabled front porch, side porch,transom window in the front, double window on second story, at 670 Grace. Stroud: Tefft's house on Division was a similar house. It is no longer there of course. Miller: I am just saying that I don't feel comfortable with that proposal. I just couldn't find another example. Owner: Can I bring over an example to show you? This example shows a house very similar to this. (Discussion regarding the example ensued but was talk-over-talk and inaudible) Wiedmeyer: Pat, what are the apartments across the street from your house? Miller: Shed portico. Wiedmeyer: Okay. I couldn't remember what shape of the roof was there. Miller: There are some that are more open. There are many of those. And you have to think that anytime the door is partially obscured from straight on. Stroud: For the most part,they are up because the stairs and so forth, you are always looking up into them. I think that posts there and having something in there is appropriate, whether it be an open work or a closed design, either one of them. Miller: Can we approve that without having a reference or do we just approve a concept? Should we set aside? Owner: Well this is something, at this point, is not going to happen until spring. We still have issues with finishing the clean up of the brick so, in that regard, no, we are not in a big rush but it would be nice to have one less thing. Would you like us to take the brackets out and put in posts? Now would you like that then to mimic what we are doing with the side porch? Is that what I am hearing? Miller: Whatever is decided on the side probably should carry to the front. Stroud: You should carry the elements from one porch to the other. Owner: I don't see any problem with that. If the rest of this is fine, then I think we could easily stick with that. Durrenberger: Moving away from the brackets, by creating this bracket and shed, you have to decrease the actual overhang to 3'6". So let's go back to a porch with columns that is going to have to be extended closer to 4'. Design Review Subcommittee Minutes — December 14, 2010 Page 19 of 26 Miller: The other thing I did look at too is the 1897 Sanborn which shows a porch on the front. � e It shows the footprint of the porch. Brackets vs. gable... (At this time Betty Couture indicated that she had to go to another meeting and left this meeting). Owner: Is the gable concept itself acceptable? It's the matter of the support system on it in the front? Stroud: Whether it is closed in or decorative. It would be typical to have something in there. To have a tent shape is just not typical around town. There are numerous examples around town of the same type of thing. Are we dealing this as a concept or as an actual? Owner: Actual. No, at this point, if we agree on this, we will have it detailed to accommodate the changes. Stroud: So aside from the one section, the entrance, is there any other discussion? Anything else that needs to be covered? Owner: You mentioned the front porch and size. We are using the existing concrete stoop so that dictates the placement of the columns. So we have the footprints. It may not be consistent with the what's coming out of the Sanborn. Miller: Do we know what the size of it is? Owner: The existing size? Miller: Yes. Owner: It is 7' wide and 4' deep. Stroud: So 7'x4'? Miller: I don't think that is terribly out of proportion to what is showing on the Sanborn. It seems small. I guess that if the gable roof matches up, it would be okay. Owner: Well, the stairs are at the center of the door opening as well as in between the gable. Stroud: Is everything satisfactory? Wiedmeyer: Is that just the front? Stroud: The whole building really. Wiedmeyer: That includes the side porch? Stroud: Okay, the side porch now. Wiedmeyer: Couple of things I had on that. They show it with brackets which I like the look of the brackets. You can add corbels to it rather than just a breeze or breeze and brackets. That would look nice on there. The apartments that you had in your picture which was passed around has a nice breeze and brackets rather than just simple brackets. And it has got to be dependent on the soffit size and if you are going to put corbels on it. The issue is getting into the breeze is that it takes it to a vertical height and that the head room is going to be getting pinched. Miller: What is the size of the posts? Owner: they should be 6x6. Wiedmeyer: They should be 5-1/2. One other thing, on 570 E. Chicago, it has five-sided posts rather than four-sided so that the box beam up there is flush with the top of the turnpost. Flush so each of the boxing as it comes down, if you follow the boxing, it would be flush with the face of the posts and the posts are set on the corner so, if five-sided... Design Review Subcommittee Minutes — December 14, 2010 Page 20 of 26 Miller: A house on DuPage has an octagonal porch with tuziposts and the posts are five-sided at the top. Now that is pretty complicated but, if you don't do that, then at the top where joined, it will meet nicely. Wiedmeyer: It would end up being like 467 Division,the same thing was done where it was square post on an octagonal porch. It just set back where it should be flush with the face of the beam. You can take a square post and add a triangle slice to that post and make it work that way rather than having a custom post made. But the idea of the brackets and the corbels on the face extending up underneath the soffit. Just another idea. Fritz-Williams: John, can you repeat that? Wiedmeyer: I would rather see brackets and corbels. Fritz-Williams: What if they went the other way, parallel rather than perpendicular. What if the brackets were turned 90%. Wiedmeyer: Yes, that would be fine. Fritz-Williams: The double box beam which is taking up an additional 5". Miller: Many of the turnposts have brackets but are light and not sandwiched, not pierced. They are under the other decorative work. So the problem I have is I think everything is too heavy. The posts are too heavy and disportionate. When close together, posts look smaller. If you look at other octagonal porches and measure. I also think that I have problem jointing together the brackets in the roof which are very heavy and Italianate and then the type of brackets that are on the turnpost porch are lighter. So, when I look at this, it doesn't look like it goes together. The posts at 467 Division were actually 3-3/4". They were tiny because there were so many of them. And they actually didn't make them that size. Stroud: This is still going to be springtime work, right? Owner: Yes. Stroud: This is something that might be looked at a little bit more, to lighten it up... Owner: We can scale back in a rotation where it follows the roof rather than the column. Downsizing the posts itself, I would want to run a number on that structurally because it is a flat roof. We will do work on this and come back. Stroud: I think it would be something to do a little work with and bring back again. I think we have given you some ideas. The one thing that we do have to consider is that this is the Design Review Committee and it's not the design that we are doing. We just want to review what others have designed. There have been times when we have gone all out and spent a lot of time working on a design and that is not really our position. Owner: I think that feedback is helpful. Stroud: Yes,feedback is helpful. Owner: I think we are really getting close. I think we are on the same page of what we are trying to accomplish. Stroud: And this is not the only house built in this manner in town. There are several comparisons, most of them have been remodeled. But you can get some ideas from them. So, I think, at this point, we need to move along and, I guess, the idea is that this will be put off until a future date. We do approve the concept. I think maybe we should have a vote to approve the concept with details to follow. That way, we are moving ahead. Could we have a motion to approve the concept. Design Review Subcommittee Minutes— December 14, 2010 Page 21 of 26 Motion made by Commissioner Wiedmeyer to app rove the concept. The motion was seconded by Commissioner Roxworthy. The motion passed unanimously. 305 E Chicago Street—Apply muntins to windows The contractor has submitted an application for a Certificate of Appropriateness to install false muntins on the windows. The current COA required two over two SDL windows to replace vinyl, 9 over 9 false muntins. The muntin was installed horizontally instead of vertically. The contractor has met with staff to resolve this discrepancy without replacing all the windows again. Staff has proposed the compromise of allowing the contractor to add muntins vertically, creating 4 over 4 windows to match the original windows in the gables. The muntins would be added to the exterior and interior. Elgin Design Guideline Manual Specifications: Windows A. should be repaired rather than replaced, but if replacement is necessary, the recommended replacement should be in-kind to match the originals in material and design. Windows clad in aluminum or baked-on aluminum are acceptable as replacement windows for use throughout the structure. Factors to be considered in determining whether the severity of deterioration of windows requires replacement shall include but not be limited to the following factors: damage, excessive weathering, loss of soundness or integrity of the wood, deterioration due to rot or insect attack, and cost to repair. As to the factor of the cost to repair windows, a particular window may be permitted to be replaced rather than repaired if the estimated cost to repair the windows is more than the estimated cost of the purchase and installation of appropriate replacement windows. B. which are new should not have snap-on or flush muntins. True divided muntins are preferred over these types of muntins which do not have the same appearance as historic windows. New muntins which are an integral part of the window sash and installed on both sides of the glass are preferable to snap-on simple grilles. Staff Recommendation: Staff recommends approval of the Certificate of Appropriateness as submitted. Owner: Can I make a comment about that Jennifer? Fritz-Williams: Sure. Owner: The contractor that installed the vinyl pocket windows actually removed the old frames and installed the vinyl window in a stud opening, which is very unusual and what I had ordered was a sash kit. Are you clear on what that is. All: Yes. Owner: Well, if you don't have a frame to put the balances and sash in, you are out of luck. So the installer actually remodeled, built an entire new frame to install first and then installed the balances and the sash. So it brought it back to a much more of what it would have looked like Design Review Subcommittee Minutes— December 14, 2010 Page 22 of 26 back when it was built in 1913 or something like. There was some confusion on my part, and I take full responsibility for this, I happen to be a friend of the owner, I didn't get the design of the cut lights approved first which is mistake number one, I admit to that. And the memo dated 12-9-08 calls for two over two which was exactly what was provided except that it didn't specify vertical instead of horizontal. What I supplied was a horizontal mutton as Jennifer said so we are going to in fact install the verticals on sashes and make them four over four. That's it. Fritz-Williams: In 1980, it was four over four windows. Now it is horizontal two over two. Staff allowed a false mutton. It was better than the nine over nine and better than the horizontal two over two. Wiedmeyer: Will you be getting material from the manufacturer. Owner: Of course. Roxworthy: These are vinyl windows? Owner: No sir, they are not. They are clad. It was a clad sash kit. That is clad on the outside, wood on the inside and we supplied new balances and then, as explained, the contractor built frames and installed that into the building because there wasn't an opening in there that was the same size nor was one square and plum. Stroud: Any further discussion? Can we entertain a motion to approve staff recommendations? Motion made by Commissioner Roxworthy to approve staff recommendations. The motion was seconded by Commissioner Wiedmeyer with manufacturer supplied muttons. The motion passed unanimously. Fritz-Williams: COA will be ready on Friday. 463 E Chicago Street—Widen new window at rear of property The owner has submitted an application for a Certificate of Appropriateness to widen a new window at the rear of the property. This opening was a 30" door and the subcommittee has approved the door be replaced with a window already. However, since it is a new window, it must meet minimum code requirement and be 36" wide. The window will be 5' tall. The window will be widened to the east to avoid the rake board along the west side. Elgin Design Guideline Manual Specifications: Windows A. which are original should be preserved in their original location, size, and design and with their original materials and numbers of panes (glass lights). B. which are not original should not be added to primary facades or to secondary facades where readily visible. C. should be repaired rather than replaced, but if replacement is necessary, the recommended replacement should be in-kind to match the originals in material and design. Windows clad in aluminum or baked-on aluminum are acceptable as replacement windows for use throughout the structure. Factors to be considered in determining whether the severity of deterioration of Design Review Subcommittee Minutes — December 14, 2010 Page 23 of 26 ePik windows requires replacement shall include but not be limited to the following factors: damage, excessive weathering, loss of soundness or integrity of the wood, deterioration due to rot or insect attack, and cost to repair. As to the factor of the cost to repair windows, a particular window may be permitted to be replaced rather than repaired if the estimated cost to repair the windows is more than the estimated cost of the purchase and installation of appropriate replacement windows. Staff Recommendation: Staff recommends approval of the Certificate of Appropriateness as submitted. ****** Wiedmeyer: Where does that lie on the interior? Is it the full span? Close to a wall there or is that a full span? Owner: It is the master bedroom. The ceiling matches the roof. Wiedmeyer: The reason for asking, if you are going to be reframing that for a new window, can you move the whole thing over so it's better... Owner: The cost and also how they bid it out, they based it on where the original opening was and where the opening of the door,they are just widening it. Fritz-Williams: There are closets to the east. Owner: Yes. Miller: I see this again as the previous one. Why is the window being widened? Fritz-Williams: Anything new must meet the new code requirements. The other windows are being repaired, they can be maintained at their existing width. But this is a new window going in. And it is also a bedroom on the second floor. Miller: Why can't we have flexible code enforcement for that? Owner: From the city's point of view, this is a life safety issue. We want all property owners to bring it up to code for life safety issues. We hold ourselves accountable for that as we would for anyone. Stroud: This is an identical situation to the house on Summit. And because of the life safety code I don't think that we can fall back on the historic district concept. Miller: I have not heard of this enforcement. Is this a new code? Most buildings built in the 19th Century do not have 36" wide windows. So we have a whole lot of buildings that don't meet this life safety code. Owner: Maybe I can clarify that. This is not an original opening as it is, it is a door. We know that it was a window at one time. So the way that this window is with the roof line, there was no enlarging it. So, what we felt would be the best compromise was to change the style of the window at Summit Street to a casement window which mimicked the double hung window. So we would maintain the same size. With this, we are creating a new side window anyway and what they are asking us to do is make sure that there is a window within that room that meets egress. We always to do our best that it was in the rear,the non-visible side to the street, and these are some the issues that go into a rehab that they are going to make sure that we are following the codes to the absolute tee. So, again, this is what we are asking for. It had met egress as it was. It we kept it as was, it met egress. So we asked to change it back to a window Design Review Subcommittee Minutes — December 14, 2010 Page 24 of 26 which was approved on the drawings and now what they are saying is that they want to make sure that it meets the egress requirements. Miller: Egress from every room? Every floor? What are we requiring? Owner: My understanding is there has to be at least one operable window in a bedroom that meets the minimum standards for egress. In this room, because of the way that the roof is pitched on the other side, those are very small windows. This was the best option. Another option was to keep it small and then request a style change in the casement so that it would be operable to fit the whole width of someone getting out, it's a life safety issue. Miller: This is only one room, so what about the other bedrooms? Owner: The other bedrooms have very large windows that go all the way down to the floor. In those instances, for code reasons, and for practicality reasons, we are requesting that the glass be tempered glass for life safety issues. So we are addressing life safety in all of the other rooms but in different ways. Miller: Well certainly those other windows are only 36" wide. Fritz-Williams: Only the new windows need to be up to code. Miller: Shouldn't there be the same requirements in the other rooms for life safety? Stroud: A new window is being installed. Owner: We are not asking them to consider those windows. It is when you are installing something new. Roxworthy: I have a house for sale at 541 N. Grove, original. Owner: Are you changing the window? Roxworthy: No. 411) Owner: Then you don't have to. Roxworthy: What if I took out the sash? Owner: As long as you are not changing the window opening. Or putting in a brand new window. Wiedmeyer: What about 162 Summit? Owner: They were putting in a whole brand new window. You've been in the interior of that house, it is extremely a confined space and they were extremely small windows. So they asked us how can we meet egress? And, to compromise of not changing the window size, what we did was chose the least visible window, keeping the style the same in appearance, but the way that it functioned now as a casement window met the requirement. It wasn't exactly what they wanted, no, but it was a compromise that we did. For this one,they came to us and they said, "You're putting in a brand new window in place of a door that met egress. We just ask that you..." Again, we made as much of a compromise as we can to maintain that. They are putting in a brand new window. Miller: Are you saying that the other windows that aren't being changed in size and they are staying the way they are. Owner: The window openings are not being changed. However, the request for life safety on those is that the new sash pack that they are putting in must have tempered glass. We were never planning on changing the windows, only the sash pack and, in that instance, we've met the life safety code by having the tempered glass. In this instance, we are changing the opening size and reducing it so they are asking that, in the reduction that we at least keep it historically Design Review Subcommittee Minutes — December 14, 2010 Page 25 of 26 correct because the other ones are smaller and we don't want to change the other ones because they are original openings. Wiedmeyer: Could you just clarify who "they" are that you are speaking of? Owner: We work with Dave Decker, he does the building inspections. Wiedmeyer: So the building inspectors are requesting? Owner: Yes. Miller: Is this the BOCA Code? Fritz-Williams: Yes. Also the life safety code and the fire code are different. Stroud: This is basically like, you don't have to change something if you are not doing any work on it. For example, somebody has aluminum siding. We are not going to make them take it off. But if they want to mess with it, then they have to go back to the original design and put make it up to code. Owner: Again, we are trying to find the places that aren't visible. Fritz-Williams: This is the use of flexible code enforcement. Compromise. Same as the compromise we made at 162 Summit. Stroud: Could we ask that the window hood be mimicked from above? Owner: Yes we can but that was not originally proposed and we may have to re-cost to see where that might fit in. Stroud: Paul, are you unhappy? Owner: Can you be specific? Durrenberger: Yes, I am unhappy but I can't be specific as to why. Stroud: Would someone entertain a motion to approve staff recommendation on this? Motion made by Commissioner Wiedmeyer to approve staff recommendations. The motion was seconded by Commissioner Roxworthy. The motion passed unanimously. A continued discussion was had as follows: Miller: 162 Summit was gutted. Stroud: 162 Summit should have been torn down. Fritz-Williams: The ordinance regarding the inspection of foreclosed homes will take affect on April 1, 2011. Roxworthy: After that date,the city will go through all of the foreclosed homes? Durrenberger: How soon after the homes are foreclosed will they be inspected? Fritz-Williams: I don't know those answers. I have not read the ordinance. Fritz-Williams: Pat, regarding your question as to why code doesn't catch window issues...code doesn't inspect owner occupied homes, only rentals. Miller: There are a great number of rentals that are never inspected. Why? They are licensed by never inspected. They aren't inspected because they are owner-occupied and the owner claims that the other units are family. The inspectors walk around the outside of the house and aren't looking at the windows where there is no glazing and where water running down and rotting all of the wood. The inspectors should focus on the glazing. Design Review Subcommittee Minutes– December 14, 2010 Page 26 of 26 Fritz-Williams: They look at peeling paint but not the glazing. As Vince Cuchetto said in the last meeting, code relies heavily on its citizens. Code is short-staffed due to retirements. If anyone notices these issues on windows, they need to let code know. There are 35,000 properties and only 6 code officers. Miller: Is there a system in place to see if new renters. It may start out with a family and six months later they move out and someone else moves in. There is no system in place to check to see if resident change. Fritz-Williams: I believe that in code the next system being revised is the rental license system. Stroud: I have one last issue. This time the agenda file did not download. I wasn't the only one that had problems with it. It wouldn't download for me. I had to go through the backdoor and get the file in Adobe. It wasn't in the other file form. So I didn't have the option of having the menu on the side. Something needs to be checked on that. And then the fact that my battery dies. Can we get cords, extension cords? Fritz-Williams: I am trying to get the system, when you click on the agenda packet, and you go to this page,from here,you can click on each individual item, better than trying to download the entire packet. That is what I am working on with ITS at the moment. So rather than downloading the entire packet, you will click on, in this case, seven different PDFs and download each one separately. ADJOURNMENT: Motion to adjourn was made by Commissioner Roxworthy. The motion was seconded by Commissioner Wiedmeyer. The motion passed unanimously. The meeting of the Design Review Committee was adjourned at 8:25 p.m. Respectfully submitted r. L. olba Approved: /'79—// Design Review Subcommittee (Substitute) Secretary